Defending Israel
Why is the world so anti-Jewish?
And yeah…I’m playing the “religion card.”
There is no other explanation for the complete blindness that people have on this issue.
We, the United States of America, took a lot of land from Mexico. We settled it, won it in armed conflict, etc. Now imagine if the impoverished Mexicans, in an effort to reclaim Mexican land, fought back in the only way they could: sending their young people into San Diego to blow themselves up in pizza parlors and night clubs. And by launching rockets from Tijuana. For years on end. What would we do?
Of course, this isn’t a good analogy. The Arab neighbors of Israel are much worse.
When Israel actually responds. When they go to war. What do we get? Graphic photos from Arab apologists complaining that life is nasty, brutish, and short. Complaints that war is hell. Accusations that Israel is a murderous regime.
Welcome to a war where the persecuted side starts fighting back.
Good grief…
Good lead off question. Maybe you should rephrase that just a little to, “What does the rest of the world see that I’m missing?” Instead you immediately assume that the rest of the world is blind and you apparently see things pretty clearly. Mistake.
The Mexican analogy just doesn’t work. It’d have to be more like this: The US takes land from Mexico in 1967 (taking land from nations is always bad, but it seems to be worse nowadays when we are all supposed to be civilized and so on) and crowds the entire population of Mexico into the poorest and most economically depressed state in Mexico (is it Oaxaca?). We then partition Oaxaca into little sections and block access off between the sections so that people have to either go thru long lines at check points to get to school or work or to grandma’s house from home etc. We place our armies in these checkpoints and suspicious people are constantly taken and jailed, often without charge (something like 9,000 currently jailed without charge in Israel right now including 400 women and children). To a certain extent we control cash flow into and out of Oaxaca and the Mexicans become one of the poorer nations in the region, unemployment soars and youth have essentially no hope for economic prosperity in the future. They build up a resistance against our brutal occupation after years of non-violent resistance. The UN Security Council unanimously tells us 70 times to pull out of Mexican lands immendiately. When there is a rising up, we brutally put it down and kill dozens everytime. We bulldoze the homes of resistance group members and shoot missiles at resistance group leaders to kill them, often missing them and killing nearby school kids instead. Of course we have a right to defend ourselves and the kids just got in the way. When they take one of our soldiers (which they have every right to do since we are an illegal occupying power on their lands) we break their utilities, condemning numerous people to death by cholera or heat stroke etc. When the rest of the world calls for us to stop our atrocities, we call them “US Haters” and ignore their pleas.
Then, I guess you would have a more plausible analogy.
This is very interesting. Many news agencies reported that the Israeli soldiers were in Southern Lebanon when they were captured! That would change the dynamics of things a bit wouldn’t it.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24913&hd=0&size=1&l=e
I’d have to partly agree with Curtis. The original post was a very ignorant simplification of a very complex situation. Polarizing posts like these are helpful to no one, but I’ve come to expect such from this blog.
The truth of most issues lies somewhere in the middle, but it’s a great deal easier to paint in black and white. Unfortunately, monochrome posts like these are rarely worth the pixels they use.
Yup. That’s what I said:
I left out the part about being surrounded on all sides by Latin American countries and having them invade periodically to drive us to the sea.
Curtis evidently agrees with the Syrian Ambassador Imad Moustapha who said that the Israeli soldiers were “captured” and not kidnapped! I don’t buy it. I believe they were captured.
But, for the sake of the discussion, let’s say that they were captured. That would make them prisoners of war, correct? Can you see where this is going?
Hezbollah (or Syria or Iran or whoever is holding these “captured prisoners”) needs to make them available to the Red Cross (or Red Crescent in Arab states) and prove that they are being treated well as according to the Geneva Convention. Right?
So why don’t we hear the Left screaming about the soldiers’ rights as prisoners? Why don’t we hear the Left demanding Hezbollah (Syria, Iran, et.al.) prove the soldiers are okay? Their silence is deafening. And intelligent people can figure out why. Because the Left knows that the soldiers were not captured, they were kidnapped, and if they’re still alive they probably are not being treated anywhere near as well as their Islamic brothers in Gitmo.
I assume the difference between a capture and a kidnapping depends on which side of the border the abduction took place?
Whatever terminology you like to use for the abduction, if they are prisoners of war, they should be afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions. However, there are a few problems here. To be a prisoner of war, don’t you have to be captured in the midst of a war? Which nation in this conflict has declared war? Neither as far as I know. Also, Israel claims to not be fighting against a state, but a “terrorist organization.” As far as I know, the Geneva Conventions only pertain to state actors and not, “terrorist organizations.” This, of course, is the rational used by the US government in it’s many prisons in Iraq, Afganistan and Cuba.
However, how much should we bray about Hezb’ alla’s two prisoner’s treatment when Israel has 9000 prisoners from the occupied territories, that have never been charged!?
This from Amnesty International:
“Most of the detainees are believed to have participated in armed opposition against Israeli or SLA rule over south Lebanon. But they are not prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions and Israel does not admit prisoner of war status to its opponents in Lebanon. At least 21 Lebanese detainees are held in Israel without charge or after expiry of their sentences; most of them do not know why they were picked out for prolonged secret detention in Israel. About 130 Lebanese detainees, including one woman, are held in Khiam Detention Centre; they have no legal status and few rights. All these Lebanese detainees exist in a limbo where they have no information as to when, or if, they will be released.”
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150181997
So, as you see, there is a much blacker eye in Israel. This is one of the big problems in the education of US peoples about the situation over there. There is a whole history that the newspapers entirely ignore. All we see is the kidnapping of two soldiers and that Israel has a right to defend herself. A true picture of the the situation is so elusive in the media, one wonders if reporters should be required to take more history courses in order to become a reporter in the first place.
presumably these courses will be taught by members of amnesty international? i don’t see any problem with that.
wait. so you don’t think prisoners of hizballah fall under the geneva convention because george bush says so? you’ve come a long way, curtis. (or are you one who complains about the existence of the gitmo facility, and you’re just being inconsistent now?)
using that logic, how much should we bray about sporadic and limited US mistreatment of prisoners, when terrorists behead theirs and then send put the videos out just in time for the nightly news? when they mutilate their prisoners, kill them, and toss their bodies out on the streets. when they string up innocent contractors, burn their bodies, and dance beside them? but i would bet you were one complaining after the abu-graib scandal and the (now refuted) gitmo “koran flushing” story.
israeli families and children have no information as to when or where they will be killed. it could be the pizza place or the ice cream shop or the bus to work. the only thing that is sure for them is they will not be murdered by those currently detained in prison.
it sure is a hard life for everybody over in the holy land.
Do you have some sort of problem with AI’s work?
This was said half tongue in cheek. Standards should be applied universally right?
Tell me which Hezzbollah or Gazan has done that? I think you are affected with paintbrush syndrome. You see one Arab do a bad thing and then they are all guilty.
I assume you are referring to the mercenaries executed by the residents of Fallujah. Another instance of your ignorance. They were armed guards who were above the law in Iraq who were available right after peaceful demonstrators were fired on by the US occupation army.
Their insecurity is largely a product of their army’s atrocities which would stir up any nation to anger and revenge.
Finally!!! The true inner Kossack emerges!
Israelis are victims of righteous Palestinian/Arab anger.
They deserve it.
Maybe the Israeli army deserves it, but the general Israeli public deserves it no more than the US general public would deserve retribution for atrocities done by the US army on Iraq.
And now we know that Jane Fonda and Ward Churchill did, in fact, have a love child (if not physically, at least ideologically).
Hey, stop using AM talk show host tactics. It never fails… when you can’t counter an argument intelligently, start calling names. It’s like you have no brain to assimilate new information, you keep spewing out the same kind of mindless word drool no matter what sort of facts you have to ignore along the way.
That would be Motown radio tactics, thank you very much. You gotta love The Supremes.
Ok.
So, does this mean you are done countering our arguments “intelligently?”
Doug and Travis, I just recently discovered your blog. I like your style, gentlemen!
Curtis, Amnesty International used to be a pretty fair organization that reliably put the spotlight on human rights abuses. However, in the last few years (specifically since Irene Khan and William Schulz took reign), they have lost a great deal of their credibility.
Calling Guantanamo Bay a “gulag” in 2005 certainly got them publicity and lots of donations but they lost respect. Claiming that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair were the world’s GREATEST human-rights violators, they have lost the trust of many who used to consider them the world’s most reliable watchdog.
Curtis, do you personally believe that Kim Sung Il of North Korea is more of a humanitarian than Mr. Bush or Mr. Blair? I recently read somewhere that the forced starvation of the North Korean population is so severe that the median height in that country has dropped 3 inches. (Sorry I don’t have a source for that.)
Do you really think that Cubans have more political and civil liberties than US citizens? Honestly, Curtis, all rhetoric aside, do you really believe that?
If AI really believes that North Korea and Cuba deserve less scrutiny than the US, can you believe anything they say? Apparently alot of reasonable people don’t think they are very reliable any more and other more credible organizations have sprung up in its place. Can you blame anyone for being skeptical about AI claims any more?
And it’s really a pity that this once prestigous, trustworthy organization has been turned into an irresponsible, anti-war, anti-American, pro-socialist mouthpiece that downplays human rights violations by leftist regimes. Their agenda no longer appears to be defending the helpless but rather bringing down this current President no matter who gets overlooked in the process.
Anyone who is willing to make that sacrifice for such an agenda does not deserve our respect and certainly can’t be taken seriously any more.
Lucy,
My, you know a lot about AI. However, none of the knowledge you have was aimed at countering their well documented claims of Geneva Convention breaking prisoner practices by Israel. You seem to want to take Hezbollah to task for their prisoner treatment X2, but haven’t said much about Israeli prisoner treatment X9000. The AI piece documented very well what Israel is doing, on a regular basis, many, many times more than Hezbollah. Yet, you expect the left to get excited about Hezbollah’s treatment of prisoners? I would definitely agree with you that the prisoners should be treated humanely, but to make an outcry against Hezbollah while Israel is doing much worse would be to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. If you can show me that AI’s claims on Israel’s prisoner treatment are false, I’ll stop taking them seriously on that point.
BTW, I do agree that Bush & Co. have a pretty dismal HR record. Il is a pretty lame guy too, and I do believe that Cubans face certain political repressions, but also enjoy certain basic human rights that we don’t have here in the USA according to the UN Declaration on Human Rights, authored mostly by Eleanor Roosevelt back in the day.
What’s wrong with being anti-war, anti-american, and pro-socialist?
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24967&hd=0&size=1&l=e
The above link is an example of the treatment of Israeli border guards of people they suspected of being Palestinian, when they were actually US citizens. The woman and her son were beaten and threatened with death. Is there any wonder that there is an intifada and rebellion against the mightiest military in the region? Will this be reported in the US news? Will US citizens be able to learn of this incident so they can have an informed opinion of the situation over there? No way Jose.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24967&hd=0&size=1&l=e
The above link is an example of the treatment of Israeli border guards of people they suspected of being Palestinian, when they were actually US citizens. The woman and her son were beaten and threatened with death. Is there any wonder that there is an intifada and rebellion against the mightiest military in the region? Will this be reported in the US news? Will US citizens be able to learn of this incident so they can have an informed opinion of the situation over there? No way Jose.
What’s wrong with being anti-war, anti-american, and pro-socialist?
In the end, you lose.
In all honesty Curtis, I think that people would give stories like that and claims of Israeli oppression a lot more thought if the Palestinians and Hezbollah didn’t attack Israeli civilian targets.
Supposing that the Israelis are malicious, doesn’t it strike you as bizarre that the Palestinians or others would fight even dirtier? If they wanted International support and attention, why would they attack civilians? You may say that Israel does the same, but not so. Israel is trying to attack terrorists that set up shop among civilians. We see that today in Lebanon. What are the Palestinians or Hezbollah trying to attack? Right now, Hezbollah is unabashedly firing rockets at purely civilian targets. They don’t even pretend to use an alibi. That is a major difference.
Terror has never been a credible or positive tool for change.
I’ve got to agree with you on some points here Ryan. suicide attacks on civilians or Hezbollah’s firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas are indeed war crimes and the responsible parties should be prosecuted. However, Hezbollah, which fires seemingly at random, has killed 34 Israelis, 19 of whom are soldiers. Israel, on the other hand, has killed at least 400 Lebanese, almost none of whom are Hezbollah. They say they are aiming at Hezbollah, but they are taking out water utilities, power plants, all available bridges, firing on people fleeing when they are told to evacuate by the Israeli military, taking out the airport, even firing on hospitals. The UN Human rights guy, Egeland or something like that, was in Lebanon today commenting on how much of humanitarian law was being destroyed by Israel in Beirut. There is no apparent discrimination, beyond lip service, as to the targets the Israelis are going after. In my mind, you go after civilians, you are a terrorist. Therefore, Hezbollah and Israel are committing terrorist acts. It just happens that Israel’s terrorist acts are a couple of light years in destruction beyond what Hezbollah is doing.
As far as Palestinians go, I think that a careful study of the situation on the ground there for the last decade or so, would show that Israel’s tactics are much more dirty than Palestinian’s tactics. I know your impression is different as you have previously expressed. I’d encourage a study of the situation beyond the most superficial history that the news media chooses to report on.
I’m absolutely with you when you say terror is not a good tool for change. I abhor it on all sides, but see it in US actions and Israeli actions as well as in Al-Queda and Hezbollah’s actions.
In other words, head on over to zmag, CounterPunch, and uruknet (”information from occupied iraq”!) for the whole truth.
Curtis: My whole point about Amnesty International was that if they say that Israel is abusing prisoners, I am highly skeptical. I don’t have the means (or time) of proving or disproving it (as I’m not in that business!). You said that AI’s claims are “well documented.†If that means you truly accept their documentation that President Bush is a greater threat to human rights than Kim Song Il and Fidel Castro, then I say let’s look to other sources of information. I don’t trust Amnesty International any longer. I used to, but no longer. They can not be taken seriously now for the reasons I outlined before. I think it is naïve to blindly accept anything AI claims.
You said that AI claims that Israel is abusing 9,000 Islamic prisoners. I doubt that because when I look at who Israel is and the fact that they are a democratic nation and have a government based on Scriptures, it is far easier for me to believe that they would treat their prisoners humanely. When I look at who Hezbollah is, it is very easy to assume they are lying if they claim abuse. And here’s why:
Some time ago I read through some passages of a terrorist training manual that was discovered in London when some Islamic terror cells were apprehended. The terrorists in training are given instructions on how to routinely falsely accuse of abuse and torture, etc. while in captivity. Keeping that in mind, when an Islamic terrorist claims he was abused by anyone—whether by Americans, British, or Israelis, so what? It’s probably false!
Have you personally read any articles about former Islamic prisoners who report just the opposite? Saying that they were treated very well in Gitmo and, in fact, they wish they could come back to America and live here permanently because they love Americans? I have! Of course, you could counter by asking why should we believe them? Well why not? There’s no reason for them to lie about that and why would they want to live in a country that abused them? However, there are many reasons for someone to falsely claim to have been abused. Remember the Koran flushing incident that turned out to be totally fabricated? I wonder if the kidnapped Israeli soldiers are getting Kosher meals right now? I wonder if they were given a copy of their Scriptures to read?
You said that Amnesty International had “many, many more†examples of abuse done by Israel than by the Islamic terrorists. I wonder what scale they used to judge that? To my mind, one beheading is probably the equivalent of about 100,000 beatings. How about you? What scale would you use? I admit I’m a little prejudiced about the beheadings since one of my husband’s (distant) relatives was beheaded by Zarquawi himself in 2004.
Curtis, why are you so quick to believe claims of evil against this country? Why did you ask me what is wrong about being anti-American? Are you just bored and trying to make conversation or do you really not know the answer to that question? I know nothing about you except for the few entries I’ve read here on this wonderful and delightful blog. I don’t even know if you are an American except that the language and historical knowledge you have certainly sound American.
I know that there are many people in other countries to hate America. But I would not trade places with a single one of them. Because obviously they don’t know the America I know and love.
Do you live in the U.S.? Are you anti-American? That would greatly surprise me, Curtis, because you sound like a pretty smart gentleman. And why would an intelligent person want to live in a country they didn’t like? Can you name any country that’s better than the United States of America? If you truly trust the Hezbollah is capable of being truthful or offering a superior life than that found in America, have you considered living in Iran or Syria? Or perhaps you already do. (But somehow I doubt that!)
My point about the Geneva Convention was that the Left seems to be very selective about who they demand gets treated by Geneva Convention rules. They will spend countless hours demanding that captured Islamic terrorists in Guantanamo be treated by those rules. But at the mere mention that a kidnapped Israeli soldier be treated by those same humane rules, it’s suddenly off limits?
Exactly which “basic human rights†do Cubans have that Americans don’t have? And what documentation do you have for President Bush having a “pretty dismal record†in human rights? (And no AI “documentation†either!) Are you comparing your life to that of the average Cuban perhaps? Are you really suffering in your life because of President Bush?
Curtis, this war with Islamofascism is probably the single most important war America will ever engage in. I truly believe that this is a fight for civilization, for mankind itself. I believe that we must win this war whatever the cost, with whatever it takes. We simply can not lose this war. It is inconceivable. This enemy wants to destroy all of us, and they are willing to do whatever it takes. Are we?
You asked what is wrong with being anti-war? Let me answer that with a question to you: Is there anything or anyone in your life you would fight for with all you’ve got? Anyone at all? Any cause at all? Is no one or nothing that important in your life? I refuse to believe that, Curtis. Because if someone is that cold and callous, they would have to be dead.
So, how then do we get justice against our enemies? Answers Pres. Young, “How easy it is for the Almighty to direct the steps of our enemies, until they fall off the precipice and are dashed in pieces, without the efforts of his servants.â€(7) Says the Lord, “But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.â€(8) Commenting on this scripture, Pres. Young said, “It is written that the Lord will destroy the wicked, and He has done so by bringing about circumstances to
Oops, that post was a mistake. The real one follows.
I said that AI’s claims were well documented in the case of Israeli prisoners. The report I linked you to above was written in 1997. AI has been watching Israeli prisoners closely for many years, likely from an era when you still trusted them.
However, your blind acceptance of other’s viewpoints here are rather glaring.
All right then, if you won’t believe AI, then how about the International Federation for Human Rights? They undertook a very nice fact finding mission in 2003 and came up with this report:
http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/ps365a.pdf
Israel doesn’t even try to deny these findings as far as I know so why should you?
Here’s where blindness comes into play. If you’ve ever read Nibley, he points out very nicely that it is just those states that show themselves as the pillar of righteousness that are the worst criminals. Israel based their government on scriptures in Christ’s time too and they were one of the more wicked nations on the earth at that time.
This something that Al Queda is doing, NOT the citizens of Palestine! Please don’t catch paintbrush syndrome where you paint all Arabs as terrorists. We’re talking about thousands of citizens captured in Palestinian terroritory here, not Al Queda in the mountains of Afganistan. There is a big difference.
Again, you are suffering from paintbrush syndrome here. I’m talking about Palestine and Lebanon which have a total of 3 prisoners not under the Geneva Conventions and Israel, which has 9000 prisoners not under the Geneva conventions. That’s a big difference. No one has done any beheading there.
A pretty loaded question since there are many different kinds of America. I’d say I’m anti-US imperialist policy and anti-US war machine, but I’m pro-US for the good little people I know, the good people of America who are what this country is all about. This country to me is not about the kakistocracy or the evil that the elite and the politicians involve themselves in. We have the Gadianton Society among us and it is at the head of our country. The Book of Mormon warns us against these secret combinations and tells us to fight against them. I’m all for that fight.
Lucy, I hear this so often it’s not even funny. “If you don’t like America why don’t you get out?” I love the USA. True patriotism is a bit different in my mind that what is traditionally thought of as patriotism in the USA. I defer to Pres. Kimball on that. He said:
““The Lord gave us a choice world and expects righteousness and obedience to his commandments in return. But when I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened. We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel ships, planes, missiles, fortifications and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus in the manner of Satan counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.†(Matt. 5:44-45.)”
Who said it’s off limits? I demand they receive the same treatment that 9000 Arab people are receiving in Israeli prisons. Is that good enough?
The inalienable rights of having a home to live in, and medical care for all. These are listed as rights afforded all peoples by the UN in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights.
It’s in the newspapers every day. Human rights include the right to life, and Bush’s policies have taken the lives of thousands upon thousands in Iraq and Afganistan. There is very ample documentation of torture to death sometimes in places like Abu Graib. We apparently use the practice of extraordinary rendition to send prisoners to places that are notorious for torture. We support evil regimes like that in Uzbekistan, which is at least as bad as the Taliban and probably worse (the leader there boils political opponents to death). When I say Bush, I mean our government in general that is tolerating all of this. We actually gave the Uzbek leader a standing ovation in Congress within the last year.
If you are not a member of the Mormon Church, I apologize for spouting so much unfamiliar material to you, but in our scriptures there is a large amount of material teaching us to “renounce war and proclaim peace.”
Here are a few quotes I have gathered thru the years:
So, how then do we get justice against our enemies? Answers Pres. Young, “How easy it is for the Almighty to direct the steps of our enemies, until they fall off the precipice and are dashed in pieces, without the efforts of his servants.â€(7) Says the Lord, “But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.â€(8) Commenting on this scripture, Pres. Young said, “It is written that the Lord will destroy the wicked, and He has done so by bringing about circumstances to cause them to destroy themselves.â€(9) There is a spirit that stirs up men to war one with another, said Pres. Young, “There is a spirit that prompts the nations to prepare for war, desolation, and bloodshed–to waste each other away. Do they realize it? No.â€(10) The Lord taught thru Moses the way of safety and security, “If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments,… I will give peace in the land,… neither shall the sword go through your land.â€(11) So why are our enemies allowed to exist? What is the purpose of the Lord in not destroying these people off of the earth since he has the power to do it? Again, Pres. Young taught, “We have received enough to understand that the wicked are a rod in the hands of God to chasten his children. If you do not [understand that], it is time that you had learned it, for it is even so; if we are chastened, it is for a purpose… But were we ever destroyed? No, neither will God permit us to be, so long as we are desirous of being his servants, and of doing the work given us to do.â€(12) The Lord explained to Nephi right from the get-go what purpose the Lamanites as enemies of the Nephites would serve, “And if it so be that they rebel against me, they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance.â€(13) In another place Nephi repeats this teaching, “And the Lord God said unto me: They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me; and inasmuch as they will not remember me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction.â€(14)
but you’re guilty of paintbrush syndrome yourself, then. (everyone in the israeli jails is a “palestinian citizen.”) aren’t many of them members of hamas, hizballah, or some other terror — pardon me, activist — organization? but you’ve just “blindly” labeled them all “citizens.” don’t you think some of them might have more in common with al qaeda than a regular resident of palestine? that said, of course, the residents of palestine are pretty gung ho on killing westerners (see, eg, the 9/11 celebrations).
they haven’t responded! the only reason for this must be that they are guilty of the charges! i like that logic.
she didn’t say that, she asked you to compare conditions in the US and the countries she named. doing that, you find lots to admire in cuba. why don’t you try living there and see how long you last? this suggestion is different from “if you don’t like it here, leave.” we don’t want you to leave, necessarily. we want you to stop lying about the quality of life in these “third world” countries.
they’ve also liberated 50 million people. but lots of guys who favor female genital mutilation and public soccer stadium executions of women who laughed in public had to suffer premature death. pity. i guess one must take the good with the bad.
curtis, please. stop scaring the nice lady. there are approximately 4 trillion words in the lds canon when you include the writings of latter day prophets. you have given us, what…six or eight selections? and they aren’t even anti-war, per se. they do sound a lot like what jerry falwell (or pat robertson, i can’t remember which) said after 9/11 (the lord allowed them to attack us as chastisement for our immorality as a people — is that what you’re saying?).
as i said, these scriptures aren’t even anti-war. but if they were, you could find several acknowledging that righteous people can still fight wars. more importantly, why do you do this when the lds church leadership has clearly voiced its support for the war on terrorism? they’ve even produced a DVD for LDS members of the military, i believe called “let not your heart be troubled.”
assuming there is a scriptural split on the issue, then we should be keying in on what the current first presidency and twelve apostles are saying. modern revelation is always the most correct. GBH beats SWK, BY, and nephi, as i’m sure you know.
then again, lots of people are happy picking and choosing what church doctrines to believe. [here's one recent example]
Are you not aware of the definition of the word, “citizen?” Briefly, Merriam Webster defines it thusly: “an inhabitant of a city or town” A member of Hamas in Palestine is also a citizen. A member of Hezb’ Alla in Lebanon is also a citizen. In fact, every one in the world is a citizen of some country, so your point really eludes me here.
What I should have said is that they neither confirm nor deny the charges, but I think they actually have confirmed the charges in the past now that I think of it. Anyone who doesn’t believe that Israel has prisoners not under the Geneva Conventions is living in some kind of fairy land. It’s a fact that noone denies with the possible exception of commenters on this blog.
My apologies for taking Lucy’s statement out of its original meaning. Which lie have I told about the quality of life in a third world country?
Yes, I’m sure the residents of Bagdad are feeling quite liberated right about now. They are probably feeling much better than they did before the war.
In the first place there has been no revelation made public on the current war. The prophet gave his opinion on the war, but that doesn’t equal revelation. For a more exhaustive treatment of War and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, please see my post on provopulse on the subject and give me your rebuttal if you have the energy.
http://provopulse.com/home/?q=node/1234