Copyright 2004 Fox News Network, LLC. Fox News Network SHOW: FOX HANNITY & CO 9:31 PM EST December 14, 2004 Tuesday TRANSCRIPT: 121404cb.253 SECTION: NEWS; Domestic LENGTH: 2664 words HEADLINE: Interview With Jerry Falwell, Timothy Gorsky BYLINE: Sean Hannity; Alan Colmes GUESTS: Jerry Falwell, Timothy Gorsky BODY: COLMES: Welcome back to "Hannity & Colmes." I'm Alan Colmes. Still to come tonight, do Europeans hate Americans more than ever? The results of some new polls may surprise you. But first, we hear new stories everyday of schools and towns that are outlawing any signs of Christianity during the holiday season. Is this a sign of inclusion or political correctness gone haywire? Joining us from Lynchburg, Virginia, the chancellor of Liberty University, Reverend Jerry Falwell, and Church of Free Thought -- coming to us from that organization, Timothy Gorsky in Dallas. We thank you both very much for being with us. Reverend Falwell, it may surprise you. I don't really have a problem. I grew up singing Christmas songs in school, in a public school. You know, I'm Jewish. Didn't seem to -- didn't bother me. I think some places have actually gone overboard this year -- or are we just recognizing it this year for the first time? Or is it getting worse? Which is it? REV. JERRY FALWELL, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: No, it's getting worse. In many instances, it is not because the school board or the principal or the superintendent is anti-Christian. He is just very nervous because he has gotten a letter from the Americans United for Separation of Church and State, or from the American Civil Liberties Union warning him or her that if you allow Christmas carols or any mention of Jesus or the use of the term "Merry Christmas," you are going to be sued. And schools don't have any budgets for that. And so just purely out of fear, in some cases, it is bigotry. COLMES: Let me be clear about the ACLU, because they have a history of fighting for the rights of people to express their religion. And didn't they sign, in 1995, the joint statement of current law and religion in public schools, along with other Christian groups like the Baptist Joint Committee and the National Association of Evangelicals? The ACLU doesn't object to "Silent Night" and other songs being sung in an educational versus devotional context. FALWELL: Oh, yes, they do. And no matter what they say, I'm out here -- We have 600 attorneys. Liberty Counsel, Mat Staver, president and general counsel -- 600 attorneys who do nothing but defend at no charge Christians, Christian organizations, against that kind of discrimination and bigotry. I can tell you, almost behind every one of the incidents is the ACLU, and/or Americans United for Separation of Church and State. COLMES: Well, the ACLU says otherwise. Let me ask Timothy. You know, the First Amendment says Congress shall pass no law establishing religion. If you sing a song or the school does a play, and there happens to be a nativity scene -- Excuse me? TIMOTHY GORSKY, CHURCH OF FREE THOUGHT: That's not what it says, though, Alan. It says that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. (CROSSTALK) GORSKY: In other words, the government should have nothing to do with religion. And what we mean by that, of course, is theology and doctrines, and so forth, of all respects. (CROSSTALK) FALWELL: No, that's not what it means. COLMES: So if a play is being done -- hold on, Timothy. If a play is being done or if a child is singing a song, how is that Congress passing a law -- how is that Congress establishing anything? What does Congress have to do with it? GORSKY: Right. Well, of course, the 14th Amendment is what brought all of the Bill of Rights also to bare on the states and localities. So, since the Civil War, states and localities have not been able to... (CROSSTALK) COLMES: I'm talking about the First Amendment, which everybody cites. Where in the First Amendment... GORSKY: Yes. COLMES: ... other than Congress doing it does it say you can't sing a song or have a nativity scene? GORSKY: But, by the 14th Amendment, the admonition of the government -- the prohibition on the government endorsing or getting involved with religion applies to all of the states and to localities. HANNITY: Hey, Mr. Gorsky, just for a point of reference, you don't want "In God We Trust" on U.S. coins, right? GORSKY: "In God We Trust" was put on the coins in... HANNITY: Yes, I just want a quick answer. Just for reference. GORSKY: The quick answer... HANNITY: You don't want that on coins, right? You don't want "one nation under God" in the pledge, right? (CROSSTALK) GORSKY: We never had "In God We Trust" -- we never had "In God We Trust" on our coins and currency when this nation was established, and we should go back to that. HANNITY: And you don't want "One nation under God" in the pledge, correct? GORSKY: "One nation" was in the pledge, and of course, then it became fractured by the insertion of "under God." This is the thing... (CROSSTALK) HANNITY: And you don't want -- and, for example, you think it's wrong for Congress to hire, for example, a chaplain with tax dollars, correct? GORSKY: We do not want the government to become involved in promoting or endorsing theology and religious sects. HANNITY: Do you think that's unconstitutional if Congress hires a chaplain? GORSKY: I think it depends what the chaplain does. If the chaplain is there to support all religious points of view... HANNITY: Well, the chaplain says prayers. The chaplain says a prayer. GORSKY: Well... HANNITY: The chaplain goes in and prays. GORSKY: Because of the way that it's carried out, it probably is unconstitutional and most (UNINTELLIGIBLE) agree that it is. It would not be if it were inclusive. HANNITY: Next question: Do you know who the author of the Bill of Rights is? GORSKY: Excuse me? HANNITY: Do you know who the author of the Bill of Rights is? GORSKY: Our founders are most of them deists. They were not Christians. HANNITY: I didn't ask you that. I asked you, do you know who authored the Bill of Rights? GORSKY: Probably James Madison. HANNITY: James Madison, sir, correct. Do you know who hired with tax dollars the first congressional chaplain? GORSKY: It probably was James Madison, since you're trying to lead me down that path. HANNITY: That's correct, sir. You're right again. GORSKY: But let's keep in mind... HANNITY: So the very thing you are saying is unconstitutional was done by the guy that authored that document, sir. Isn't that true? GORSKY: What I'm saying is that in those days... (CROSSTALK) HANNITY: That means you really don't have a clue what he meant by original intent. GORSKY: Let me finish. Let me finish. I mean, you're trying to pretend that the chaplain in that day was out there saying, for example, what Mr. Falwell says when he is in public. I don't know that that's the case. HANNITY: No, I'm trying to point out... GORSKY: When we have chaplains in the military -- chaplains in the military, for example, are supposed to support everyone's religious beliefs. When someone is dying on the battlefield, they're not supposed to be asking them or trying to proselytize them one way or the other. HANNITY: No. The point I'm trying to make, and I'll go to Reverend Falwell here. Reverend Falwell, he thinks it's unconstitutional to have a chaplain, but the author of the Bill of Rights, that constitution original intent, hired the first chaplain for Congress. And that shows how far out of touch they are with those that had original intent. GORSKY: That tells us nothing. HANNITY: Reverend Falwell. FALWELL: Sean, that is correct. GORSKY: That tells us nothing about what was on James Madison's mind... (CROSSTALK) HANNITY: Reverend Falwell, please, Mr. Gorsky. FALWELL: And Thomas Jefferson... GORSKY: James Madison was a stalwart defender of the separation of church and state. FALWELL: Thomas Jefferson, who is credited by the left with initiating the so-called wall of separation of church and state -- those words appeared in a letter he wrote to the Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut. It was Thomas Jefferson, our third president, who, during his presidency, December 3, 1803, had the Congress ratify a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, having the U.S. government pay the salary for a pastor for their church for -- a priest -- for seven years and gave them the money, U.S. tax dollars, to build their church building. And so there is no separation of church and state. (CROSSTALK) COLMES: Hold on guys. We're going to take it up in just a second right after the break. More to come. We'll check in first with Greta Van Susteren. She is standing by looking at what's coming up right after "Hannity & Colmes" at 10:00 -- Greta? GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: Alan, we didn't get to talk to the jurors during the trial. But, tonight, we're going to get a chance to talk to them directly and find out what went into their decisions on guilt and the sentence of death. That and much more. Back to you. COLMES: Be sure to watch "On the Record" right after "Hannity & Colmes." And coming up later, thousands of European protesters have shown their dislike of President Bush. Now they say they don't like the rest us either. We will show you a shocking new poll, coming up. HANNITY: As we continue on "Hannity & Colmes," I'm Sean Hannity. Still to come tonight, the re-election of President Bush has many Europeans outraged. Should you care? And why does a recent poll say that Europeans are angry with us? We'll get to that. But first, we continue with the Reverend Jerry Falwell and Timothy Gorsky is with us. Tim, I don't think you've got my point here. Let me make the point... GORSKY: Well, let me just make a point that I was trying to make before the break. HANNITY: Well, I may educate you. But go ahead. GORSKY: And that is that John Adams signed into law the Treaty with Tripoli that said specifically that the United States is no sense founded on the Christian religion. That treaty was approved by the Senate without any dissenting votes. There were no record of any newspaper letter objections... HANNITY: But it certainly -- when you say "endowed by our creator" in our original document, certainly that would circumvent that. GORSKY: They were deists. They were deists. HANNITY: All right. But let me go to my point. The point I made with you is -- you know something, you're making points about the issue of separation of church and state, as it relates to the whole issue of Christmas. You can't sing carols. You can't mention God. GORSKY: We haven't even talked about Christmas. And I haven't said that. What I have said... HANNITY: There's a broader principle. And the principle here is, is you have distorted and perverted the original intent of the guy that wrote the Bill of Rights... GORSKY: No, what I'm saying -- let's get back to Christmas, Sean. HANNITY: And that's my point. Well, that is the point. (CROSSTALK) HANNITY: You don't even know that he hired the first chaplain. GORSKY: The point about Christmas is that this is a season for everyone. Christians did not even celebrate Christmas until the 4th century. No one really knows when Christ was born. Many other holidays occur at the same time of year. HANNITY: Where is your tolerance? Do you care about our people's point of views? We get lectured by liberals all the time about tolerance. (CROSSTALK) GORSKY: ... wants to celebrate Christmas, but everyone should be allowed to celebrate Christmas... (CROSSTALK) HANNITY: So why can't you sing a Christmas carol, and liberals show a little bit of tolerance at a school, and let a vast majority of people enjoy their holiday? GORSKY: I did not say anyone could not sing a Christmas carol. HANNITY: Well, that's what they're saying in New Jersey. GORSKY: What I'm saying -- well, I don't know about that case. What I'm saying is that, if you have government-funded events, and they're turned into religious events to promote the idea that Jesus is the reason for the season, that that is wrong, because for Christians... FALWELL: Well, he is. Well, he is, Timothy. GORSKY: Because, for Christians, Jesus is the reason for the season. But for unbelievers, it is not. FALWELL: Jesus is the reason for the season. GORSKY: No, he is not. For Jewish people, Jesus is not the reason for the season. HANNITY: It's the reverend's time. (CROSSTALK) GORSKY: For Islamic people, for Buddhists, Jesus is not the reason for the season. HANNITY: Hey, Timothy, it's Reverend Falwell's time. Reverend Falwell, please. FALWELL: Two thousand years ago, God so loved the world that he sent his son, virgin-born, into Bethlehem manger. He lived a sinless life, died a vicarious death for all men, for you, also, Timothy. GORSKY: I think most people know what Christians believe. (CROSSTALK) FALWELL: ...as your savior. You'll get over this bigotry. COLMES: Reverend, it's Alan once again. Let me ask you this: While I agree with you in principle that a kid should be able to sit up in class and sing a Christmas song, as I did, not even being a Christian, should a child -- let's say everybody is singing "Silent Night," and then the words "Christ our savior is born." Should a child be forced to sing that or -- what should he when that phrase -- what do you in a situation like that? FALWELL: Of course not. No child should be forced to observe Hanukkah or Christmas or any other holiday. COLMES: But if all the other kids are singing it, what do you do? FALWELL: But at the same time -- at the same time, Alan, the Constitution does not give us the right not to be offended. I don't get offended when a Rabbi prays or a Buddhist or a Muslim prays. GORSKY: It depends on the situation, Mr. Falwell. FALWELL: And they should not... (CROSSTALK) COLMES: Hold on. Let him answer, Timothy. FALWELL: When Billy Graham preaches, or I pray, get over it. This is a Judeo-Christian nation. It always has been. It is today. And we should not be ashamed... COLMES: All right. The Treaty of Tripoli that Timothy mentions does say we are not in any way -- it was started during the Washington administration, signed by John Adams, says we are in no way a Christian nation. Why do you think the Treaty of Tripoli said that, and do we not observe that treaty? FALWELL: That treaty was said trying to make peace, trying to bring down hostilities. But the overwhelming weight of evidence, from the Mayflower Compact to the New England Confederation, all of the state charters, is this is a nation under God. And I really object to people wanting 96 percent of the American people who believe in God to defer, be quiet, over the feelings... COLMES: Nobody wants anybody to defer. FALWELL: ... of Timothy Gorsky, Madeline O'Hare, or a few atheists. COLMES: I often here Thomas Jefferson quoted, Reverend... (CROSSTALK) GORSKY: Everyone seems to believe in a different god. FALWELL: ... a nation should not have to capitulate for your bigotry. COLMES: Reverend, I often hear Thomas Jefferson quoted as he was earlier tonight. He also said Christianity neither is nor ever was part of the common law. He has made a number of other statements that are particularly favorable to Christianity. Can't we honest -- we could pick and choose our quotes if we want from our forefathers, can't we? (CROSSTALK) FALWELL: Well, there are 43 presidents. There are 43 presidents. And I have here a listing of Christian quotes, biblical quotes, by all 43 of them, beginning with Washington and right through Mr. Bush. And to deny the fact that this is a nation under God, it's just as only happened in the last generation. And God delivers from the ACLU, Americans United. And by the way, Tim, if you want to join our coalition, it's faithandvalues.us. We will get you educated. GORSKY: Well, I would suggest that people take a different point of view and realize that Christmas is for everyone. Merry Christmas to everyone. Happy Hanukkah. HANNITY: Very nice of you, Tim. See, you left on a good note. Thank you for being with us. And it was Jefferson who authored the Declaration, "endowed by our creator." GORSKY: Who was a deist. He was a deist. HANNITY: Coming up, do the French want -- hey, he authored it -- want to bid adieu to Americans? New polls show that Europeans are not only angry and bad feelings towards the president, but they're also angry with all of us, all of the American people. We will show you the shocking results of that poll, next. LOAD-DATE: December 15, 2004